Should Distribution box risers be required?

[Larry D.]

I like the idea of risers on distribution boxes.  It give you a chance to check the box long after installation happens.
Should counties require them??

[Toxic Avenger]

"Should d-box risers be required?"

Well, they are nice to have for ease of checking a d-box.  But I just don't think requiring one by the the local health department is necessary.  For one, I have only seen d-box risers for plastic d-boxes, whereas most, if not all counties allow both plastic AND concrete d-boxes, and many installers still use concrete.  Therefore, concrete d-boxes would not able to be used, unless someone can show me a riser that is made for a concrete d-box that is also "water-tight".  I personally like concrete d-boxes for their strength and weight (they don't get knocked out of level or get crushed as easily as plastic does).  Plus, if the interior is coated with an anti-corrosion material then the life of the d-box is significantly lengthened. 

So, no...I personally don't feel they should be required by law.  What I would advise any homeowner and/or installer to do is mark the location of the d-box in some way so it is very easy to locate in the future.  Usually d-boxes aren't that deep and digging them up takes maybe 15 minutes in normal soil.  One day, if risers are made for ALL makes and models of boxes, then maybe they could be required, but not until then. 

[LM Excavating]

They should be required as the D-box needs to be checked each year to assure they are level.

Without a riser they are hard to locate and with that never will be located until the toilet don't flush (Too Late)

Zoeller has the best d-box out for a gravity system, been using them since 91 and they are simply the best, no digging required to adjust.

If you need more than 5 holes then use 3 of them, one to split between the 2 boxes but you need to try and keep the 2 boxes as equal on flow as possible, and NO this is not addressed by any state code, it's between you and the locals.

The D-box is state approved.

[jaquackenbush]

Jaquackenbush,
     Yes, I think utilizing a riser for the distribution box is a good idea.  Especially here in Indiana where the ground does alot of heaving, freezing and thawing.  The d-box doesn't stay level very long.

[Toxic Avenger]

They should be required as the D-box needs to be checked each year to assure they are level.

Jaquackenbush,
     Yes, I think utilizing a riser for the distribution box is a good idea.  Especially here in Indiana where the ground does alot of heaving, freezing and thawing.  The d-box doesn't stay level very long.

As I stated earlier, this is why I prefer concrete d-boxes.  They are much heavier and are not moved out of level if installed and backfilled properly even with freeze/thaw action.  I haven't seen plastic d-box yet that will stay perfectly level over time, plus the thinner walled ones actually buckle in on the sides when backfilled!  On a side note, that I why speed levelers are so very important when using plastic d-boxes, it prevents having to completely re-adjust or even replace the d-box....just turn the dial and you're good to go.

[LM Excavating]

Zoeller box dosn't use speed levels and concrete boxes tend to deteriorate after 10 years or so.

Zoeller is the only plastic box I would use and I don't use concrete boxes anymore.

I never saw any d-box that stayed level but I suppose if they are deep enough they may stay. My thought is they most likely shift right at backfill time.

That's what's nice about the Zoeller, just pop the riser cap and look at the bubble level, adjust if needed, takes about 1 minute and no shovel.

[Toxic Avenger]

After looking over the specs for a Zoeller Tru-Flow Splitter System, which I'm assuming is the same product LM Excavating is referring to, it does appear to be an interesting design. 

I have a couple problems with ONLY using this product for ALL installation however:

1)  It only has five outlets.  I have seen many installations with more than 5 trenches, and there are d-boxes out there with up to eight outlets, in both poly and concrete.  Which in turn reduces the the cost and the complexity of the system by using only one d-box, whereas more than one Zoeller Tru-Flow would be required.

2)  According to ISDH document "OS-06-01, Indiana Standards for Zoeller Tru-Flow Splitter System (P/N 173-0001)", the splitter is ONLY allowed for gravity flow subsurface soil absorption fields.  In other words, this product is NOT approved for use in pump assisted systems in the State of Indiana.  The Zoeller specs do say that the splitter can handle a system flow up to 30 GPM, but according to ISDH it is still only allowed for gravity flow.  County Health Departments cannot legally allow something unless the ISDH allows it.  But local health department can deny the use of a product even if the State allows it. 

3)  Zoeller specs say that the, "System must be maintainable from the surface."  Meaning a riser is required to begin with.  It isn't optional.  As you may know, the unit has a built in bubble level.  Which I admit is a nice feature, but it is there because it pretty much has to be. 

4) Finally, with all due respect to LM Excavating, I don't think you are providing an unbiased opinion of the product, considering you actually market the product on your website for $100.00.  If you also sold other makes/models of d-boxes then I wouldn't call you out on it, however I only see the Zoeller Truflow available.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  Being a regulator, my opinion is completely unbiased considering I have no vested interest in allowing or denying the use of this product.  As long as it works, is approved by the State and Local Health Departments, and all requirements are met then I would not have a problem with allowing it in the right circumstances.   

[septicranger]

I do require risers on d-boxes in my county and we have for almost ten years. We also use concrete boxes that must be coated (like above the water line in the tank) entirely. Most of the manufacturers that are used in my county have a riser for their boxes and as long as the riser is installed and sealed properly, we have very few problems.

[LM Excavating]

We only list products we use on our website, If it's listed we use it in our systems, I won't sell something I wouldn't use myself. As far as sales go, I may have sold 10 d-boxes online so NO I'm not pumping up sales. If you get one and look at it you will understand that it is the best thing out there. Yes the 5 holes can be a problem and yes we have used multiple boxes on jobs but this is still way better than concrete. Once again understand it takes all of 30 seconds to check and adjust this box and no shovel needed.

We do NOT use ANY type of d-box when we flood dose, we have a proprietary method of distribution that has been approved by ISDH. It's fully adjustable and allows us to use random length laterals in a system.

Keep in mind in the dead of winter when all the water mains are busting it's not because they froze it's because the ground heaved from freezing and put pressure against a rigid pipe. The d-box does indeed move and unless you dig up that concrete d-box each spring you can't be sure it's still level. Sorry but it's a fact that can't be ignored. Even if the box stays put the pipe can deflect and change the height of the speed level. Also the gaskets are plastic and allow the pipe to wander in the hole. For the Zoeller box to go off level in the first place the pipe has to TWIST as the weir plate is actually mounted to the incoming pipe and the box can be twisted or rocked without any effect on level as long as the pipe doesn't twist clockwise or counterclockwise. Ken did his homework on this box and it's a great product. We were using this box years before it was even approved in Indiana just because there was no argument it was better.

Trust me I have installed a few systems since 1987 and worked on a few as well. We just won't use a concrete d-box since we found the Zoeller, if something better comes along we'll use that.

I spend a lot of time looking for better materials and better ways to do things and methods have changed many times over the years for us and each time was for the better and that doesn't mean it made things easier. Lot's of methods we use are time consuming but we are selling quality not speed and we aren't trying to save a buck either. We are the most expensive installer in our area and if it takes 3 Zoeller d-boxes to do the job the best it can be done so be it, you won't see concrete boxes on my jobs.

We used to use Infiltrator Chambers too but guess how many I have used since EZflow was approved,,,,,, "0"   and as soon as ICC Flowtech gets approval (hopefully this month) we will cease use of EZflow,,,,, YES just that quick we will drop a supplier when something better comes along,,,,,, I serve my customers not my suppliers.

If you hit the Pumper Show in Louisville KY this coming Feb you can see the Zoeller box plus a WHOLE lot of other neat stuff. We have been going to the show for the last 10 or so years, the first show I hit was the first time I saw the Zoeller box and I've been using it for 8 years now,,,,, Toxic Avenger however, you have just now discovered it since I posted about it (I'm not trying to sound nasty here if that's how it comes off). We also subscribe to several onsite publications from Cole publishing, National Small Flows Clearing House and several others.

If you don't keep up with technology you aren't doing anyone any favors as an installer or a regulator.

So all I can say to people is there is a LOT of stuff outside of Indiana and ISDH that works better than the old standard issue stuff. If it's not approved then get it approved, that's how I do it.

[Toxic Avenger]

You stated the following...."We do NOT use ANY type of d-box when we flood dose, we have a proprietary method of distribution that has been approved by ISDH. It's fully adjustable and allows us to use random length laterals in a system.".....That seems rather non-specific.  Can you expand on this a little bit.  I really am interested in learning new ways to do things, while still within the rules set forth by the State. 

Also, If all septic systems are covered with the mimimum required cover of 12 inches, then frost/heave should rarely be an issue, especially in southern Indiana.  Even in Northern Indiana, frost only reaches a depth of 12 inches or more during only the coldest of winters when the soil is in direct contact with the air.  Snow actually insulates the ground.  I also know what I'm talking about, since we are sharing our credentials here.  Besides my degree in Geology and Environmental Management, I also have worked for civil engineering companies, as well as done manual labor where I've done earth work. 
 
"most expensive installer in our area" - there is no direct correlation between cost and quality in the septic industry.  There are 40 PLUS registered installers in my county, so I see a huge range in fees.  Some of the priciest guys have received failed inspections from me personally, while some of cheapest guys have never received one failed inspection.

[LM Excavating]

Water mains in my area are generally 4' + deep the frost line here is set at 24", I used to install Fire Sprinkler mains (6'-12" dia.) and they are a little different in that the water is stationary until there is a fire, BUT we were required to have 4'6" of cover on the pipe. Most water utilities are about that same depth (I know as we made a LOT of taps) and at this depth they still break from heave so I know the D-Box moves as well. The freeze may not get it but the pressure from the frozen ground layer does. Even if it stays put if the pipe moves your level is lost as the speed level is in the pipe, granted we are talking 1/16 of an inch type stuff but that's all it takes. The flow from a septic tank is VERY slow, A single toilet flush can take more than 15 minutes to stabilize and stop flowing, that is why things need to be so accurate. Now if you are flood dosing it really doesn't matter that much in a D-box, the general thought behind the high flow rates (30gpm plus) was to try and pressurize the d-box to some extent to promote equal flow. YES that thought is seriously flawed due to the unknown number of outlets, 10 holes will take twice as much flow as 5 and you can have either in a same size field bed. There was no other reason for that flow figure in our rule. My flood dose systems generally run about 17 gpm no matter how many rooms and I generally use one size pump for all systems if head allows it.

We are a top notch company, we do most of the serious problem sites around here due to other installers not knowing how or they just don't want the hassle. If you knew me and my company (I'm well known in the state) you wouldn't question our work. Our cost comes from our quality of work and the complication of our work, some of our systems are quite complicated, we generally don't get the easy stuff, plenty of guys around here low balling bids beating the crap out of each other to get the easy ones. I decided years ago NOT to do that and provide a rock solid reputation that people pay for, how many installers in your area warrant their systems for 5 years pumps and all in house (no insurance policy)? I know our systems perform and am considering making our warranty 10 years with a service contract (actually I already offer it to builders).

Quality sells.

"Some of the priciest guys have received failed inspections from me personally, while some of cheapest guys have never received one failed inspection."

Ok you have a 1990 Ford Taurus and maybe a  Mercedes, Volvo, Infinity whatever,,,, all 2009 models they all pass inspection but the later names have a tendency to last longer and be of better quality and they had a lot better parts and workmanship to start off with Not to mention they are 19 years ahead on technology. So not getting into brand name wars here I'm just trying to make a clear point here, quality costs and some people will pay that cost others won't and they aren't our customers but I have had calls after the fact and they wish they had us do there system in the first place since now they are having to do it again. Just because a system passes inspection doesn't mean it was the best that could have been done for the site,,,, that is why we are different and cost more,,,,,, we don't provide the minimum we provide the maximum. If the budget gets cut we walk away as we won't have our name on a minimum system, all our bells and whistles get installed or we don't do the work.

410IAC is from 1990 our  work is in line with 2009. A LOT has changed in 19 years.