Mound failures

[jmenchhofer]

During the lead up to Ohio's big rule change in 2007, and even today, I hear people say things like "those mound systems don't work", or "so and so said his cousin had to put in a mound and it failed in just a few months".  I suspect some of these hearsay stories are not true at all, while others may have come from across the state line (I'm near the Ohio-Indiana state line).  The reason I say that, is that there were few, if any, mound systems installed in my immediate vicinity prior to 2007, but I know that they were in use in Indiana several years earlier. 

I'm interested in knowing what kind of failure rates have been observed over the years in Indiana.  Also, what are some commonly observed reasons for failures? 

[Toxic Avenger]

My opinion is that if a mound were to fail early on in it's life (first 3 years) it would most likely be due to not building the mound correctly or cutting corners in construction.  The following are some of the more common reasons for early failure:
-  The floats in the dosing tank are not set correctly and dosing too much effluent to mound,
-  The basal area of the mound was not plowed before the placement of the sand,
-  Sides of mound were not built at a proper slope,
-  Distribution pipe laterals were not drilled with proper number of holes, hole size or hole spacing.

As far as your question on failure rate in Indiana of Elevated Mound Systems, you would have to contact the Indiana State Department of Health. 

[Stuart Meade]

I would agree with Toxic.  Something is not right if any system fails early.
I have designed over 700 mound systems in the past 14 years and I see them working as well as any other system.  Of course, they are required because the soil isn't suitable for an in ground system.

Other problems leading to mound failure could include:
-System requirements not correct for the soil
-Compaction or plow pan not caught by person conducting soil boring
-System design errors (including an undersized or over-sized pump)
-Installation issues (i.e. plowing during wet soil conditions, compaction of soil during installation, plow depth not deep enough, plow depth too deep, too much clay cap, leaky tank, pipes not glued, no tees/baffles in tank,........etc.)
-Failure caused by user (i.e. hydraulic overloading (foundation drain or general water use), anti-bacterial products with non-biodegradable agents, strong pharmaceuticals, high soduim content soft water discharge, etc.)

People are ALWAYS saying things that are untrue about septic systems.  "Pumps don't work", "The Health Department now only allows mounds", "the only way mounds work is if they are tied to a tile".

[phil zim]

During the lead up to Ohio's big rule change in 2007, and even today, I hear people say things like "those mound systems don't work", or "so and so said his cousin had to put in a mound and it failed in just a few months".  I suspect some of these hearsay stories are not true at all, while others may have come from across the state line (I'm near the Ohio-Indiana state line).  The reason I say that, is that there were few, if any, mound systems installed in my immediate vicinity prior to 2007, but I know that they were in use in Indiana several years earlier. 

I'm interested in knowing what kind of failure rates have been observed over the years in Indiana.  Also, what are some commonly observed reasons for failures? 

``Another cause of early day Mound failures we have was that there were no perimeter drains or surface drains installed correctly, or another is proper kneading the soil cover to the bottom of the slope to keep the effluent from (breaking thru) the surface at high peak flows causing leaks in the system that looks like failure.

[LM Excavating]

If you ask Jim Converse he would tell you Indiana has design issues, with that we build ours slightly different than the book, we follow Jim's recommendations.

One problem INDIANA has is too much dose volume and the other is too much square footage per orifice.

I adjust those 2 items and I also up size our gravel beds to help prevent the common failure point of the sand gravel interface.

I don't like to follow code when it's wrong, I just like to give my customers the best designed system for their money.
Common sense goes a LONG way in treating people right.

I edited my wording above

[Stuart Meade]

Do you mind elaborating on how much you up-size the bed?  What else do you do to overcome what you consider what you see as design sizing problems?

[Toxic Avenger]

Forgive me, but who is Jim Converse?  Is he from Ohio or Indiana.  Is he an installer, regulator or something else?

I'm a regulator, and the Indiana Code 410 is admittedly not the easiest thing to interpret, but I've read it front to back dozens of times and I'm IOWPA certified.  However, if someone does not have the knowhow to build a proper mound, there are additional reference materials that one can request from ISDH that covers the construction of mounds in more detail than what the code describes.  Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. 

I understand when someone wants to do the best job they can, but I also am under the school of thought that you do what the regulators tell you to do, even if you think it is wrong, otherwise you don't pass inspection.  Now of course, I'm from a county where we are trained properly and know what we are doing, whereas I'm sure there are other counties that don't have the same "quality" of inspectors and installers can run all over them.   

[LM Excavating]

http://www.agrecol.com/cms/aec_page7.aspx

Click above, this is James Converse,,, ever heard of a "Wisconsin Mound"?? Well that is what they were called in the early days and I still hear it a lot,,,,,

Yep Jim's idea they were,,,,,

So,,,,, I listen to him.

[LM Excavating]

Stuart,

We don't use more than 6 sg ft per orifice and we up-size basil and gravel bed on a per case basis, we use the space we have generally.

I have one mound that the basil is 120' x 30' on some very crappy soil. It uses a K-rain with 3 individual beds.

We do a lot more differently too but I won't go into details here, I can tell you without a doubt our mounds are far superior than any in the state although they may not be the cheapest.

People pay us for quality, much like you can buy a Timex or a Rolex and I'm NEVER short on work, usually I have a waiting list sometimes more than a year.

So you might say we look at it this way,,, the most quality each customer can afford and ALWAYS exceeding ISDH standards,,, hell anybody can do it by the book,,,,

[Stuart Meade]

How are the K-Rains holding up?  Are you using actual K-Rain brand OR the Zoeller models.  I've used K-Rains in recirculating media systems.  Their performance was not good (they quit working within 1 year).

I agree that alternating to multiple beds is a good idea (we do this all the time on large commercial mounds).  Unfortunalty, convincing homeowners to install beyond the minimum requirements can be very difficult. 

I'm glad to here that your business is doing well.

[LM Excavating]

I have 2 k-rain valves in service and the Zoeller version is the same valve, just sold by zoeller.

There are 2 series of k-rain the 4000 and 6000, I have no experience with the 4000, both of mine are the 6000.

The first one has 24 cycles per day since August 2001 and working fine.

There is not much to fail in one so not sure what happened with yours, maybe take it apart and see if something is lodged in the indexer.
I had a piece of gravel stuck in one once and not really sure where it came from, must have been in the plumbing from assembly.

ALSO they require a LOT of head to make them work and best if that head hits at a decent GPM as well so,,,,, BIG PUMP NEEDED.
Off hand I think the valve adds 10' to the mix and will cut your GPM drastically.

Take those failed valves apart (they are very serviceable) , I bet they are fine.
Did "YOU" see they were bad or someone tell you they were bad, I just find this hard to believe since they are quite well built, once again take them apart I bet they are fine.
ALSO, if your orifices are getting stopped or plugged with crud your GPM will drop and may affect the valve performance.

[Toxic Avenger]

I laughed out loud when I checked some of my "reference material" that I mentioned above and looked down at the bottom of the page and it was from Mr. Converse himself.  All this time I have his materials at my desk and didn't even know it.  But ISDH obivously uses his ideas, because that is where I got the reference material to begin with. 

[jmenchhofer]

It sounds like everything LM is doing is over and above minimum code requirements.  As a regulator, I would have no problem with that.  Toxic- have you heard of Mr. Converse's colleague Jerry Tyler?  He's another Wisconsin onsite guru, and he's largely responsible for the "Tyler Table" method of sizing soil absorption systems that is currently used widely in Ohio.  Around here, the Tyler Table is considered to be the "Bible".  He spoke extensively last year at the Ohio Onsite Wastewater Association convention, he actually said "I haven't used it that much, but apparently you have."  That didn't necessarily inspire a great deal of confidence, but it was funny!  He also said he feels that the loading rates in the table are conservative, so that made me feel better. 

[Toxic Avenger]

What needs to be emphasized here, which some of you have already touched on it, is that the State and County regulations are the MINIMUM standard requirements.  That does not mean installers should only do the bare minimum, and in fact I look down on that.  But, a regulator's job is not to force a system to go in that is above minimum requirements, that is the installer and property owner's decision.  I have actually had some installers ask if they could go above our minimum specifications for a site.  And I tell them the same thing every time, "You don't need permission to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, as long as doing so does not violate any other rules, i.e. separation distances to property lines or wells, etc."

[LM Excavating]

I'm betting MOST of your installers are looking for the bare minimum, I know they are around here as I bid against them all the time.

The best one is I got a job that I came in @ $12,000 and beat a guy @ $7200,,,, so some people are still willing to pay for a better system.

How many of your installers have a standard 5 year warranty on new systems?

You see if we were all doing what we should be doing every installer would have no fear of a 5 year warranty,

BTW we offer 10 yrs with service contract.