Why is Indiana so far behind with Septic Systems and how can this change

[LM Excavating]

OK here is the new thread and I'll get things up to speed,

First I have spent a LOT of my personal time on this issue over the years something you won't see your health dept.s doing since I have yet to see anyone do anything outside of normal business hours. I am self employed so any time I spend on the subject is either my free time or time that could be spent making money.

Point is it is costly for me to participate in the subject yet I still do.

Now anybody that knows the current rule knows we are light years behind some other states and even further behind current technology.

From my perspective I am ripping off each and every homeowner off installing by this rule, morally I feel that is wrong. So to feel better and know I am doing the homeowner a favor I install with current technology within or outside of the current rule.

I would like to see Indiana leading the way in Septic Design and technology, for God's sake Purdue is right here!!

I would ask that people reading this take a look on Google and look at what is actually going on around us to grasp just how far behind we are.

Start here http://www.doh.wa.gov/ehp/ts/WW/pubs-ww-all-bytitle.htm There is a LOT of good reading on this page if you take the time (I have)
 
I have actually heard this with my own ears from ISDH that the rule is meant to be simple and easy to understand,,,,,,,,,,??????

Hey if we are worried about everybody being able to keep up we are in the wrong mind set. Let's move on, sure some will be left behind and run out of business but that is just how things work. You keep up with technology or get left behind.

 One health dept in my area had to give out ORAL tests because some installers could not read,,,,,??????????? C'mon!!!! Seriously???? YES!!!!!!!!
These same installers could not do math either,,,,??? OK how do they shoot elevations??

This is why we have problems with a lot of new installations.

So How do we get out of this mess??

In a perfect world we would first have certified Health Professionals that are required to continue education, attend new technology shows and keep certification.
This ensures a knowledgeable staff.

Then we work on the installers by requiring some continuing education that should include new technologies or methods (let's keep moving forward) and same as above have to keep their certification current.

Now the inspection process,,, OH BOY!!!
Well I have seen a fair amount of corruption in this phase and it should be eliminated. My suggestion much like soil scientists we should have the OPTION of a private company to inspect the work. That way the homeowner can get a true objective inspection that may not be part of local county corruption. Choices will become more abundant over time as the field develops. The county should still be able to inspect and there should be an appeals process in place much like the soil scientists have (you can contest a soil report)

Now the inspection should be 3 parts
1) initial site visit to verify layout design
2) Surprise drop by inspection during construction (One local dept does that and I like it, you have to notify them of your working days on that system before you start)
3) Final inspection to verify the system was covered properly (I see a lot of problems right here alone)

With these steps you will by default weed out bad installers.

Once all 3 phases are approved an "operation permit" can be issued,,,,,,,,,,, What was that?? Yes I feel our systems should have operation permits.

WMC is currently working on operation permits but it seems it will be optional for the county. I feel a State rule (maybe with teeth) would be best.

Sure this will drive costs up for permits but you know I rarely see a house these days with less than $20,000 in Kitchen cabinets so what is a few hundred dollars for a permit?

I was asked once why I didn't take a Health Dept job and honestly I wouldn't want it, don't want to be part of the problem and that is the sad fact here, it shouldn't be a problem.

I was just told that a trip to the pumper show would not be paid for by the county therefore this person could not attend,,, well nobody is paying my way either but I am going just like I have for the last 15 or so shows,,,, but you see this is my life, my livelihood it's not "Just a Job" to me.  
Sorry man "No Excuses" when it comes to keeping up, just do it or get out of it.
I think the saying is "If you can't keep up with the Big Dogs stay on the porch"   Ha Ha!! See ya when I get back!

Maybe our whole problem with State and County Health Dept.s is just that,,,,, it's "just a job" (actually a problem with a good bit of the USA these days),,,, well as a tax payer I would like to see more than I am getting.

So this should fire up something/somebody,,,,,,,,,,, What do we do about the current poor condition we have?

[Toxic Avenger]

Quote:  "My suggestion much like soil scientists we should have the option of a private company to inspect the work. That way the homeowner can get a true objective inspection that may not be part of local county corruption."

First, you are assuming corruption exists only in government, and not in the private sector.  Private companies doing work without a required permit is a form of corruption.  Corruption breeds corruption, and two wrongs don't make a right.

Second, the local health departments are paid a salary, and make the same amount of money no matter how many permits they issue or how many inspections they perform.  Whereas, if private companies were responsible for inspecting septic installations, there would be no consistency at all, especially as you get more and more companies performing the inspections.  One agency equals consistent results.  

Third, you claim that you "refuse to waste" people's money.  Yet, private companies work for a profit, and I guarentee if companies did do the inspections they sure as heck wouldn't be not-for-profit organizations.  Local health department have a fee for permits, yet they are minimal compared to the amount of money a homeowner would have to pay to hire a private inspector ON TOP OF a soil scientist and installer.  

Fourth, even with private companies, the permit would STILL have to be issued by a regulatory government agency!  It is the same in EVERY state, not just Indiana.  Name one private company in the United States that issues permits without being regulated by the government, whether it be for buildings, sewers, water lines, gas lines, etc.  Every company is regulated by someone, whether it be IDEM, DNR, EPA, ISDH or the local government.  

[LM Excavating]

Ok your first comment,
We ALL know the soils scientist thing was a dismal failure (sarcasm) so why would inspections be any different when dealing with the private sector???
By the way I have the OPTION to CHOOSE ANY soil scientist I want.

2nd
You are correct on the salary issue a County employee gets paid no matter how poor of a performance they put forth. On the other hand an inspection company would have to be successful much like Home Inspections are today and have been for as long as I have known about them. You ARE right on consistent results,,,,,, Good or BAD depending on the County, no choice in the matter for the homeowner.

3rd
If I wasn't turning a profit you wouldn't have a job, and don't forget Stuart, he is turning a profit as well. What is wrong with profit?? Let's take your paycheck away and see how long you do your job, you're already complaing about a trip to Louisville. So SORRY but YOU are making a profit if you think so or not. Health Dept. fees are minimal for the minimal service they provide.

4th
I NEVER said a private company would issue a permit I implied the STATE should issue an Operation Permit.

The issue with private inspection companies is the homeowner has a CHOICE (USA remember freedom thingy) for a soil scientist and an installer yet no choice for the most important part,,, the inspection.

I have a CHOICE for most anything I purchase including my medical care,,,, Oh wait,,,, maybe that is going to change (Obama care)????



You know when you are driving down the road and that HUGE 18 wheeler is coming at you just inches from you in the other lane rolling along at 80,000 pounds????
That truck was inspected by the PRIVATE SECTOR by one of thousands of Truck Repair shops in the USA,,,, Yes I used to do it myself. It may not be perfect but it works and people have choices in who does it.

[Toxic Avenger]

Hey man, I'm providing a differing viewpoint than yours.  That's all.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, or poo-poo on your opinion(s).  I've said what I have to say and there is nothing more I need to add.  I'm interested in hearing what others have to add to the debate. 

[LM Excavating]

That's fine, same here I just hold my ground pretty firm.

From my viewpoint the system is HORRIBLY broken and when you are dealing with the county you have no other choice other than move to another county and I have seen that happen.
It's a shame people have to move to get some freedom.
I think it's high time to put some things into the private sector,,,, give you a little home work here,,, go to maybe the county fair or any large gathering of people, stand up on a podium and start preaching to them how you feel we should ALL have MORE government control over our lives. Then when it's all over give me a call and I'll give you a ride home from the Emergency Room.

I'm not sure where you were in 1986 but that's about when I started into this on a regular basis and been living the nightmare ever since.
Trust me we have problems and what I laid out is a great start for a fix.

One county I work in has the WIFE of one of my largest competitors ANSWERING THE PHONE FOR THE HEALTH DEPT. I won't even get into the rest of that story but I offered to have my wife do the job for no pay.

That same county will do a site sketch during inspection that supersedes my plan, once on one of my jobs they had all these varied trench separations and tried to say I was too narrow between laterals in places so naturally I was quite ticked off and had the whole Dept. come out for a review.

After my wife explained they had the plan (ours) upside down to the site I told them to add all their figures together and come up with a total width for the system  so they did, I then told them to grab the "smart" end of my 100' tape and walk across the system and tell me what they read,,,, YES their added up footage was 10 feet off of what they just measured so I asked how can that be? At that time the head of the Dept said "it's time to go" and since then I have had no trouble.

I spend sometime 2 days laying out a system so for a plan to supersede mine they better have at least the same tools I have or better and even more time to verify everything since it's quite a dug up mess at this point.

I could write a NOVEL on all the mistakes, ethical issues and poor performance I've seen in 24 years in 8 or so Counties.

Sorry but I see way more bad than good from a county Health Dept and I think the public should have some choices when it comes to inspections and I think the Health Dept should ALWAYS have qualified staff.

I would bet your job is NOT exclusive to Septic Systems, I pretty much know you deal with ALL kinds of issues other than septic and your training (if any) is geared towards all of those different aspects of your job.

Bottom line even when I do see a decent individual in that job it is not very long before the attitude changes because there is just WAY too much job there for one person in even the small population counties and there is no funding for more staff. The permit fees go into a county general fund and not specifically back into the Health Dept.

This is PUBLIC HEALTH at stake here so WHY would we trust it to a bankrupt broken system?

Also I'll add that in my home county the Building Inspector is a CONTRACTED JOB he is NOT a county employee (unless it very recently changed) the company gets paid by the county but is a private company.
Maybe this would be a good start towards Septic Systems?

My job is 95% exclusive to Septic Systems and I have yet to see any county employee that could say that same percentage.

If we take it out of county hands then that is just one less thing you have to worry about in your daily job.

By the way,, I'm NOT picking on you at all, I'm mean to a LOT of people you're nothing special in that respect, SO,, look at yourself this way,,,, this is a very public forum, there are 96? counties in Indiana and God knows how many people involved in this aspect of public health at State, County and private levels,,,,,,,,,,, At least you took the time to voice your opinion,,, so what does that say about the others and the system? You're ahead here no matter how mean I may seem, just do yourself a favor and take some new insight away from it all.