Do you communicate well with your local Health Department?

[Toxic Avenger]

As a regulator, part of my job is to permit septic installations.  I have to keep an eye and ear open for non-permitted activities as well.  My county is one of the top 10 most popluated counties in Indiana, yet our septic division is very small compared to other counties of similar size.  We issue minimum 400-500 septic permits per year, and on a busy year upwards of 700-800 permits.  Consequently, we are very busy.  

Regulators deal with installers on a daily basis, and without good communication, our job would be very difficult and inefficient.  Communication is never a one-way street.  Once a good line of communication is started, then all parties benefit.  You may not see eye to eye on things all the time, and sometimes personalities come into play, but as long as a mutual respect is held between all parties, good communication can remain intact.  

Good communication is key to do our jobs the best we can.  For instance, I have received calls from installers telling me they saw a septic system being installed and something looked "fishy".  I ask for the site location and I look up to see if any permits have been issued.  If not then we investigate.  Many times, we discover acitivites taking place that could have done some real damage to public health because things were being done improperly and without being inspected.  This protects all the honest installers out there that have paid their dues by getting licensed and insured.  Cracking done on illegal installs protects future homeowners as well, because nobody would want to end up buying a house only to have the septic system fail soon afterward because it was not installed properly.  There are some installers that feel this is "ratting" on someone, which is understandable.  But the more we can eliminate "illegal" activities, means the more work for the legitimate installers and the easier it is to protect public health.    
 

[LM Excavating]

I work with about 8 Health Dept.s and some are great some are a joke.

I will work with someone who is willing to work with the situation Speaking on repairs (existing home)
Not every site can be perfect and we can't bulldoze the house down without ruining someones life,, so we have 2 choices
1. Leave it alone and ignore it (Health Dept. first choice)
2. Do what we can to make it the best it can be with the space/topography

What makes more sense?
Is it a gray area? SURE it is but what is right?
Which does more harm to the environment?

That being said Hell Yes I will do un-permitted work so did Ralph Reed and a lot of others.

Just because you don't have a permit does not mean you are doing something wrong.
Sure installers are cutting corners and doing shoddy work but don't be so quick to group us all together.

Nobody wants the tough jobs but they ARE there and don't go away by themselves.
Honestly sometimes working with Health Dept.s makes me sick, we should all be focused on the same thing here, best system possible.

Sometimes you just have to do what is right and ignore what the outdated book says.

[Toxic Avenger]

Well, I happen to be in a "strict" county when it comes to septic systems.  We recently had a new COUNTY ordinance go into effect (within last 3 years), and due to the shear volume of septic systems in my county, the ordinance is enforced to the letter.  With regard to repairs/replacements we have "variances" that can be proposed for sites that cannot meet new construction standards for whatever reason.  Usually the most common delima is available space.   

Our county also goes above and beyond most other counties with regard to our requirements for installers.  Every installer that wishes to install in our county must not only be bonded, but also registered and licensed within the county.  We require permits for everything from complete septic replacements to minor repairs like effluent pump or d-box replacements.

All registered contractors are treated the same in my county, from the 50+ jobs per year guys down to the 1-2 jobs per year guys.  Yes, the state code Rule 410 refers only to new construction and is "outdated" which is why ISDH has been trying to revise it for several years now.  But, each county has the authority to be MORE STRICT than the state code, but we cannot be less strict by law.  In other words, we have several additional specific requirements in my county that are not covered in Rule 410.  If someone wishes to run the gauntlet and violate our legal ordinance, then they are penalized in one fashion or another, depending on the severity of the violation.

In our county, it isn't a matter of what a person thinks is right or wrong, but what is allowed and what isn't allowed.  Right and wrong is a very relative term.  Right to one person may be wrong to another.  Therefore, contractors don't get to decide what is "right" or "wrong" in my county, the regulators do.  When a tough site comes around, we provide guidance to the installer in designing a septic system that is suitable for the site while at the same time staying within the limits of the ordinance.  All the "good" installers in my county communicate often with us at the Health Department.  The key being COMMUNICATION, as is the main topic of this thread.     

[LM Excavating]

In my experience Communicate and Dictate are confused terms as far as most Health Dept are concerned. What they call communication is actually Dictation. I have yet to see a Health Dept "work out a solution" for a problem site. What I hear is "buy more land" or "can't do anything". So in reality mistakes were made (and still being made by some) by the planning commission years ago and now they expect the homeowner to suffer the consequences by either living with the problem, trying to buy more land or just having to move out. How about the County or the State pony up and buy the home at fair market value then tear it down? No it's the homeowner that has to deal with it and the persistence from the County officials in some cases.

Sorry but "do nothing" just don't cut it as an answer for me. I know my slack in each county and if the job is out of that slack I will put something without a permit. BTW anything I do is of a proven technology that just happens to be light years ahead of ISDH. Yes I was once in the game of trying to get the new rule through and I still keep up with WMC and the topics of discussion haven't changed much in ten years so I'm not holding my breath for any change.

Keep in mind here I have no idea what county you are in and I am speaking from my 20+ years experience with my counties.

So in short it may help if ALL Health Inspectors took a class in Communication and Discussion.

Case in point we had a 5 million dollar home we were installing a system for, we wanted RGF with drip irrigation and had 12 acres to work with. The local Health Dept. didn't like the idea and said no. I asked why he said it was too expensive of a system (guess he missed the $5,000,000 part) The homeowner was furious that he couldn't get the BEST system money could buy. I proceeded to look toward the ISDH and talked to Alan Dunn asked him to talk some sense to my county, he tried, as well as Ed Miller but in the end the County won and "SAVED" the Homeowner a NEGATIVE $15,000 (just to be clear here the RGF would have been $15,000 LESS and a better system) and he got a poor system in comparison. So YES from time to time I can do without the Local Health Dept.

A little power can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

You speak of Licensed installers, that is great but what I fought for and gave up on years ago was Licensed INSPECTORS I feel "YOU" should be REQUIRED to take continuing education and PASS (not talking about that stupid IOWPA test either, my daughter could pass that) plus some certified field work on top of that to KEEP YOUR JOB. Even something as simple as the "Pumper Show" should be mandatory so you keep up with current technology. Purdue should offer an advanced course just for you inspectors, something you should actually have homework in would be best, I want to see some capable hands out there and not what I used to seeing. "Ah,, it's a job" just don't cut it with me.

Sorry if I come off as a prick (lot of people see me that way) here but I AM a perfectionist and simply expect the same from everyone I work with, so my standards are quite high.

Hell I'll match my skills and knowledge against any Health Inspector and most likely teach them a few things in the process, not saying I know it all just saying I aint seen much to comment on out of most of my counties ("pickens is slim round here") and that is where I have a serious problem, they (you) should know more than I do if you have final say in matters (i.e. Permits)

I want an inspector to impress me with their knowledge and not make me feel like I'm reminiscing the "Early Years", just someone at least on the same level and have the ability to "discuss" rather than "dictate" that is how great things come about. The best people I have met in this whole business are Chris Bourke, Matt Byers and Greg Miller, (there are more) these are all people that have that ability to discuss and climb up out of it rather than roll in it.

So basically we as a state we have SERIOUS problems in this area and if YOU are working in a decent way to help these poor homeowners then I commend you if not,,, yes I would be working without permits in your county as well (may have already, I get around)

[Toxic Avenger]

LM....according to what I am hearing from you, the Health Departments you have experience with only dictate what needs to be done, but don't actually take the time to provide guidance and talk with installers about the options for a particular site. 

I can assure you, IF you were to come into my county to do work, the first thing you would have to do is get registered and licensed.  Licensing requires at least one person from your company (a person that must be on-site at all times during installation) to take a test adminstered by the HD.  The test covers our County Ordinance and the State Code Rule 410.  This assures us that each installer has familarized themselves with our rules and regulations.  The installer pays a one time fee to get licensed and each license is good for 3 years, at which time they must take the test again.  Our test is no cake walk either.  It is open book yet only 50% of the installers pass it on the first take.  There is no additional fee to take the test over again. 

Once licensed, registered and bonded, you are free to bid jobs.  At any given time during working hours, we are here to answer any question you may have, as well as provide as much guidance as necessary without actually designing the septic systems ourselves. 

I don't doubt what you say about how the Health Department(s) deal with septic systems in your area, and I feel very disappointed in them.  I am proud to work in the county I am in, just for that reason.  We actually take pride in our work and do our jobs to the fullest.  We are all college educated, highly experienced and dedicated individuals.  I could be earning twice as much money per year working in the private sector, but after joining this department three short years ago, I have come to actually enjoy the work I do.  I enjoy helping the public, working alongside contractors, and knowing exactly what is expected of me. 

I am also a blunt and direct personality, and tell people how it is without beating around the bush, yet I also have to balance it out with respect and politeness (until it is time to not be so polite).  In a way, my personality fits the job I do perfectly.  If you are TOO nice then installers will walk all over you, and if you are TOO much of a jerk then they won't respect you or cooperate as easily.  So it is a very delicate balance, one which I improve on every day.

So, communication only works if ALL parties involved are willing to go the extra mile and not just do the minimum amount of work.  I have seen many different counties in my time, and I feel comfortable, without fearing to sound arrogant, especially after hearing about your experiences, that my septic department is one of the most professional in the State. 

[LM Excavating]

LM....according to what I am hearing from you, the Health Departments you have experience with only dictate what needs to be done, but don't actually take the time to provide guidance and talk with installers about the options for a particular site.  

You are somewhat right here, where I have a problem is my "tool bag" is pretty large ( I have a keen ability to fix most any site) so when I am denied the use of my tools that is where I have a problem.

Let's give an extreme example here,,,,,

Let's say YOU have a very common very curable but very deadly cancer and here in Indiana Doctors were not allowed to use simple Chemo to cure it although many other states were allowed to use Chemo and have great success with it BUT you are anchored to this state with a concrete footer.

You have 2 choices now,

1) Let Cancer kill you
2) Find an Indiana doctor breaking the rule and saving lives

See my point?

Now I am speaking of existing homes with problems, obviously new construction can be handled before mistakes are made. or at least you would think so,,,,,, (I still see a LOT of mistakes)

Repairs should be handled in the best possible way,,,,,, NOT the best possible ISDH approved way. If a technology is proven and will fix a tough site then it should be allowed, that way I wouldn't have to fly under the radar so much.

Also keep in mind a simple RGF in front of ANY system will make it nearly INFINITELY better and can absolutely do no harm what so ever but it is not ISDH approved without a lot of red tape and submittals.
Washington State has it in their general rule with plain instructions for even Harvey Homeowner to build his own.
I've said this before, here in Indiana in comparison to some other states we are riding the "short bus" to school.
As I said I was once quite involved with all the Red Tape but things move WAY TOO SLOW for someone like me.

So communication goes only so far when common sense is tossed to side like yesterdays garbage.

[Toxic Avenger]

I understand what you are trying to say, LM.  From my point of view, you are convinced that what you are doing is "right".  Well, I personally don't agree with you no matter what  analogies you throw out there.  So we will just have to agree to disagree.  

This thread is about communicating with you local Health Department, and vice versa.  If you would like to voice your opinions on performing septic work illegally and/or without the knowledge of the local health dept. , then I suggest you start a new thread.  

[LM Excavating]

I guess my point is now you know why some may NOT want to communicate with a seriously broken Health Dept.

What I am doing may be wrong by a Health Dept point of view but by a moral standard of doing right by the homeowner I am so right compared to the Health Dept that you can't even see the left side from my vantage point.

I refuse to waste people's hard earned money just because our outdated rule says to.

How would YOU like to pay 2010 prices for a brand new 1980 automobile? Same thing.
Yes I full know the date the rule came out but the technology was old by the time the rule finally got passed just as any new rule will be outdated by the time it is approved.

So my question is WHY SHOULD I EVEN TRY TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE HEALTH DEPT?